[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL ISSUES FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK WE CELEBRATE THE LAUNCH OF OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY, OUR 30TH SEASON ON PBS.

WHAT A 30 YEARS IT HAS BEEN!

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY CHANGES.

THOSE CHANGES INCLUDE NUMBERS, THE INCREASED NUMBER OF WOMEN IN HIGH LEVELS IN POLITICS, THE INCREASED NUMBER OF WOMEN IN HIS SEE SPEEDS AND BUSINESS WORLD, AND THE NUMBER OF FEMALE HEADS OF STATE ALL HAVE GONE UP IN THE LAST 30 YEARS.

THE WAY WE VIEW ISSUES HAS CHANGED.

ONCE CONSIDERED A WOMAN'S ISSUE -- MATERNITY, PATERNITY, AND FAMILY LEAVE -- IS NOW MAINSTREAM.

AND NEW LAWS ADDRESS GENDER AND PAY EQUALITY, SEXUAL HARASSMENT, REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH, A DAVE AND HOW WE LOOK AT GENDER.

ACHIEVEMENTS BY MINORITY WOMEN AND LGBTQ PERSONS HAVE ALSO HAD MAJOR IMPACTS.

THERE HAS BEEN PROGRESS, THERE HAVE BEEN STEPS TAKEN BACKWARD.

NOT ALL WOMEN AGREE, WHICH IS WHICH?

WITH US TODAY IS LINDA CHAVEZ, WHO WAS ACTUALLY ON THE VERY FIRST PANEL THAT WE HAVE PRODUCED 30 YEARS AGO AND ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, DELEGATE FOR D.C.

IN THE U.S. HOUSE AND A LONGTIME MEMBER OF THE SHOW, GENEVIEVE WOOD OF THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION, AND FORMER JUDGE AND FEDERAL PROSECUTOR DEBRA CARNAHAN.

DELEGATE NORTON, YOU HAVE BEEN IN CONGRESS NOW IN THE HOUSE FOR 30 YEARS.

HOW HAS IT CHANGED FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF BEING A WOMAN A PERSON OF COLOR?>> JUST LOOK AT A FEW OF THE NUMBERS.

WHEN I CAME TO THE HOUSE, THEY WERE 28 WOMEN.

THEY ARE NOW 119 WOMEN.

THERE WERE ONLY FOUR WOMEN IN THE SENATE.

THERE ARE NOW 24 WOMEN IN THE SENATE.

BONNIE, I HAVE TO SAY THAT THE HOUSE HAS THREE TIMES THE DEMOCRATIC WOMEN IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE HAS TWICE AS MANY WOMEN WHO ARE DEMOCRAT.

SO MY GOOD FRIENDS ON THE OTHER SIDE STILL HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF WORK TO DO.

>> OKAY, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE A FEMALE SPEAKER, THE MOST POWERFUL WOMAN IN AMERICAN POLITICS WERE ON PAR WITH OR A LITTLE BEHIND THE FIRST FEMALE VICE PRESIDENT, ALSO A WOMAN OF COLOR.

HOW HAS IT CHANGED THINGS?

HOW HAS IT CHANGED THE LEGISLATION THAT YOU PASSED IN THE APPROACH TO SOLVING DIFFERENCES FROM THIS?

>> THE FIRST FEMALE VICE PRESIDENT WILL HAVE TO SEE, WITH KAMALA HARRIS, SINCE SHE WAS SWORN IN JUST LAST MONTH.

BUT WE CERTAINLY HAVE SEEN THAT IT HAS MADE A DIFFERENCE NOT ONLY DO HAVE A FEMALE SPEAKER, BUT TO HAVE SO MANY WOMEN IN THE CONGRESS WHEN YOU SEE THE KINDS OF FOCUS THAT THE CONGRESS IS PUTTING ON FAMILIES AND ON MATTERS THAT ARE AFFECTING WOMEN, THEY ARE A LEGION, THERE ARE MANY OF THEM.

BUT THE NUMBERS, THE LARGE NUMBER OF WOMEN, REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS, HAS HELPED US FOCUS ON WOMEN, FAMILIES AND CHILDREN.

>> LINDA CHAVEZ, WHAT CHANGES HAVE YOU SEEN?

YOU ARE OF COURSE THE REPUBLICAN FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN.

WE HAVE JUST GONE THROUGH, BY ALL ACCOUNTS, VERY STRANGE OR, LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY, ABNORMAL FOUR YEARS.

HAVE THOSE FOUR YEARS KNOCKED BACK A LOT OF THE PROGRESS THAT WAS MADE FOR WOMEN, OR DID THE FACT THAT THE #METOO MOVEMENT HAPPEN WHILE DONALD TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT PUSH THINGS FORWARD?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS I HAD ALWAYS HOPED IS, AS YOU SAW MORE WOMEN ENTER POSITIONS OF POWER AND CERTAINLY IN THE CONGRESS, THAT YOU WOULD HAVE MORE COMITY, AND THAT YOU WOULD HAVE MORE, YOU KNOW, COOPERATION, MORE EFFORTS TO WORK IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION.

UNFORTUNATELY, THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

>> IN YOUR THOUGHTS, GENEVIEVE?

>> WELL, I AGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID, BONNIE.

FIRST OF ALL, THANKS FOR HAVING US ON YOUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY SHOW.

I GUESS WE WOULD LOVE TO SAY THAT AFTER 30 YEARS WE WOULD NOT HAVE TO KEEP SAYING, GOSH, ANOTHER FIRST FOR WOMEN.

I THINK THERE ARE FEWER AND FEWER OF THOSE, WHICH IS A GOOD THING, RIGHT?

IF THERE HAS BEEN FIRST, THAT MEANS THERE'VE BEEN THOSE BEFORE.

BECAUSE OF FISH ON A LOT OF OTHER THINGS, WE TALKED ABOUT THOSE ISSUES AND PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE.

I KNOW WE STILL HAVE WORK TO DO, CONGRESSMAN NORTON, BUT THE FRESHMAN CLASS THAT, THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AT MORE FEMALE CONSERVATIVES THAN EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE HOUSE.

I THINK THERE IS PROGRESS ON BOTH SIDES.

>> YOUR THOUGHTS, DEBORAH?

>> I CERTAINLY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SEEN MORE PROGRESS ON WOMEN'S ISSUES, AND THAT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT.

THESE ARE IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT DON'T JUST AFFECT WOMEN, BUT THEY AFFECT FAMILIES, THEY AFFECT OUR SMALL BUSINESSES, THEY AFFECT ALL ASPECTS OF AMERICAN LIFE.

SO WE JUST NEED TO KEEP WORKING HARD.

I AM VERY PROUD OF SPEAKER PELOSI.

I'M SO GLAD SHE'S BEEN THERE WITH US OVER THESE TIMES AND PEOPLE LIKE DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON HAS BEEN THERE LEADING THE FIGHT.

AND SO, LOOK FORWARD TO MORE PROGRESS.

>> ONE THING I WANTED TO ASK, AND I BELIEVE IT WAS LINDA WHO RAISED IT, BUT CONGRESS, I COVERED THE HOUSE AND SENATE IN THE '80s, AND IT WAS DEFINITELY A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE DID NOT HATE EACH OTHER, BUT THERE REALLY IS A DIVISION BETWEEN PARTIES EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE SO MANY MORE WOMEN.

SO MY QUESTION TO YOU, ELEANOR, IS HOW MANY WOMEN IS IT GOING TO TAKE FOR EVERYONE SAYS, LOOK, LET'S GROW UP HERE.

THIS IS NOT KINDERGARTEN.

WE HAVE DIFFERENCES, WE WILL TRY TO -- YOU KNOW, WE WILL COMPROMISE.

>> I THINK YOU MAKE A VERY GOOD POINT THAT YOU HAVE MORE WOMEN THAN EVER, YET THE MOST POLARIZED CONGRESS EVER.

BUT I THINK THAT GOES BACK TO THE MOST POLARIZED COUNTRY.

I REALLY THINK THAT THE CONGRESS IS REFLECTING THE COUNTRY, AND I'M HOPING THAT WITH THE NEW PRESIDENT TRYING TO SPEAK TO THE ENTIRE COUNTRY THAT WE WILL BEGIN TO BRING THE COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.

I THINK YOU WILL BEGIN TO SEE THIS IN THE NEW CORONAVIRUS BILL, WHERE YOU NOW SEE MORE THAN 70 PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SUPPORTING THAT BILL.

THAT IS A GOOD START TO BREAKING THIS POLARIZATION THAT WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME BOAT TOGETHER WHEN IT COMES TO THIS VIRUS, OVERWHELMINGLY PEOPLE ARE FOR THE BILL THAT IS NOW BEFORE THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

IT HAS GOTTEN THROUGH THE HOUSE.

IT IS ABOUT TO GET THROUGH THE SENATE.

THAT WILL BE A VERY GOOD START TOWARD UNITY.

>> I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT A NUMBER OF YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT IN CONGRESS AND IN THE HALLS OF POWER IN AMERICA GENERALLY, THE WELLS TOO, THERE IS A LOT MORE TALK ABOUT TAKING CARE OF FAMILIES, PARTICULARLY PAID PATERNAL AND MATERNAL LEAVE FOR THE BIRTH OR ADOPTION OF A CHILD OR THE CARE OF A SICK MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY FOR 12 WEEKS.

THAT IS 1/4 OF THE YEAR FOR FEDERAL EMPLOYEES PASSED IN 2019.

THAT WAS -- WHEN WE STARTED THE SHOW, THERE WAS A THINK TANK OUT OF NEW YORK THAT WAS LOBBYING FOR PAID LEAVE.

I REMEMBER THINKING TO MYSELF, THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

THIS WILL JUST NEVER HAPPENED.

AND NOW WE ARE ON ITS DOORSTEP FOR EVERYBODY.

SO WHAT DOES EVERYBODY THINK ABOUT THE CHANGES IN THAT DEPARTMENT?

>> I WILL START OUT BECAUSE I WILL TELL YOU, AND YOU WILL PROBABLY REMEMBER THIS, BONNIE, THAT I WAS NEVER ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT FORCING EMPLOYERS TO PROVIDE PAID LEAVE BEYOND WHAT WAS PROVIDED FOR SICK LEAVE.

BUT THIS IS ONE OF THE AREAS WHERE I CHANGED MY MIND.

I DO NOW BELIEVE, PARTICULARLY WITH WOMEN SO PROMINENT A PART OF THE WORKFORCE, AND OF COURSE WHAT WE'VE SEEN DURING THE COVID PANDEMIC, IS PEOPLE WHILE DROPPING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE IN MUCH GREATER NUMBERS THAN MEN.

IF YOU EVER WANT TO GET THEM BACK IN THE WORKFORCE, YOU HAVE TO START PROVIDING THEM WITH BENEFITS THAT ALLOW THEM TO BE WITH THEIR FAMILIES AS WELL AS DO THEIR JOBS.

THIS IS ONE AREA THAT I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE CREATIVE IN THE WAY WE DO IT.

I DON'T THINK YOU WANT TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR EMPLOYERS TO STAY IN BUSINESS.

THERE ARE SOME INDUSTRIES WHERE PROVIDING PAID LEAVE IS MUCH, MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

I WOULD HOPE THAT PEOPLE LIKE DELEGATE NORTON CAN SIT DOWN WITH CONSERVATIVES AND COME UP WITH PLANS THAT MAKE SENSE, THAT ARE ARE NOT A HUGE BURDEN ON EMPLOYERS, BUT TO PROVIDE THOSE KINDS OF NECESSARY BENEFITS FOR FAMILIES.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S AMAZING THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED ON THAT TOPIC.

IT REALLY IS.

IT'S AMAZING THAT APPARENTLY A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THE PUBLIC MUST HAVE CHANGED ON IT OR THERE WOULD BE PHYLLIS SCHLAFLY OR HER YOUNGER REPLACEMENT OUT THERE LOBBYING AGAINST IT.

AND YET WE HAVE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE, JEROME POWELL, LAST WEEK SAY IF WE WANT TO GET WOMEN BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE FOLLOWING COVID, WE NEED FEDERAL PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

I ABOUT FELL OVER.

DEBRA CARNAHAN, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A PRETTY SHOCKING STATEMENT.

BUT I WANT TO SAY THAT YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS THE ADVISOR TO MY HUSBAND'S CONGRESSIONAL OFFICE, SENIOR ADVISOR, ROSS VOLUNTARILY GAVE 12 WEEKS' PAID LEAVE TO THE EMPLOYEES IN HIS OFFICE, INCLUDING WHETHER YOU ARE MALE OR FEMALE.

IF YOU NEEDED MATERNITY LEAVE.

SO, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE HIM YEARS AGO ON THEIR OWN SEEING THE NEED FOR THIS.

THEN WE ALSO FOUND THAT THE EMPLOYEES WOULD WORK BETTER FROM HOME IF THEY WANTED TO -- BEFORE THE SKYPE AND ZOOM, THAT THEY COULD STILL STAY AWAY FROM THE OFFICE AND STILL GET THEIR WORK DONE.

I DO AGREE WITH LINDA'S POINT THAT WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK AT INDIVIDUALISTIC PLANS, SMALL BUSINESSES MAY HAVE A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME DEALING WITH THIS.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE IS A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL.

BUT IT'S DEFINITELY NEEDED.

>> GENEVIEVE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> BONNIE, WOULD NOT HAVE ME ON IF I WOULD NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU, RIGHT?

[LAUGHTER] >> I WILL SAY, THOUGH, THAT DEBORAH IS DOWN THE PATH I WOULD GO.

LOOK, I THINK A LOT OF THINGS CAN SOUND GOOD ON THEIR FACE WHEN YOU GET INTO THE DETAILS, AND YOU HAVE TO SAY, WELL, HOW DOES IT PLAY OUT?

THE CONCERN I'VE ALWAYS SAID THAT I THINK PEOPLE IN THE CONSERVATIVE I'LL ALWAYS LOOK AT IT AS AN ECONOMIC STANDPOINT, IS THAT MANY BUSINESSES UNFORTUNATELY START HIRING THE WOMEN WHEN GIVEN THE OPTION AND HAS A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON PEOPLE TRYING TO HELP.

IT'S NOT A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL AND I THINK IN WASHINGTON, IT IS TRUE ON THIS ISSUE AND ON SO MANY, IS AN FOLDER, PRESIDENT, FORMER PRESIDENT HERITAGE FOUNDATION IS SAID THERE ARE NO PERMANENT VICTORIES OR DEFEATS IN WASHINGTON, JUST PERMANENT BATTLES.

REALITY US LEGISLATION OF ALL SORTS KEEPS COMING BACK, BUT THAT'S GOOD, BECAUSE THINGS CHANGE.

TIMES CHANGE.

COVID HAS CHANGED, THE WORKPLACE LANDSCAPE IN WAYS THAT WE COULD NEVER HAVE FORESEEN A YEAR OR YEAR AND HALF AGO.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT ALL THESE KINDS OF ISSUES, BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT DYNAMICS THAT MEANS THAT A ONE-TIME PIECE OF LEGISLATION WILL NOT ALWAYS BE THE RIGHT PIECE.

>> LASTLY, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE #METOO MOVEMENT, BECAUSE IT'S HAD -- LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH GOVERNOR CUOMO OF NEW YORK RIGHT NOW AND HOW MUCH MORE WIDELY BELIEVED THE WOMEN WHO ARE ACCUSING HIM OF INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR -- I WOULDN'T, EXCEPT MAYBE IN ONE CASE, CALL IT SEXUAL ASSAULT.

HE ASKED PERMISSION TO KISS THEME WAS NOT GIVEN PERMISSION AND DID NOT DO IT.

HE DID TOUCH ONE WOMAN'S BACK WHEN SHE WAS WEARING AN OPEN BACK STRESS IN A WEDDING.

WILL LOOK AT HOW MUCH MORE BELIEVED THEY ARE.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU, IN A '70s WHEN I WAS -- SORRY, IN THE '80s WHEN I WAS A REPORTER FOR NBC NEWS, I HAD A BOSS WHO CORNERED ME IN HIS BACKYARD AT A PARTY HE WAS HAVING FOR THE ATLANTA BUREAU, STUCK HIS TONGUE DOWN MY THROAT AND I PUSHED HIM AWAY AND ASKED HIM WHAT THE HECK HE WAS DOING.

BUT 20 YEARS LATER, I NEVER THOUGHT I HAD BEEN SEXUALLY HARASSED.

THEN COME THE #METOO MOVEMENT AND I REALIZE, HEY, IT HAPPENED TO ME TOO.

ANYONE ELSE HAVE EXPERIENCES LIKE THAT?

ANYONE ELSE WELCOME THE MOVEMENT?

>> HECK, YES!

YOU KNOW, BUT THE THING WAS WE NEVER -- LIKE YOU SAID, WE NEVER REALLY TALKED ABOUT IT.

IT HAPPENED ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I HAD A JUDGE BE COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE WITH ME IN HIS OFFICE.

SO MANY INAPPROPRIATE THINGS HAPPENED.

BUT, YOU KNOW, HE DID NOT TALK ABOUT THAT AND YOU FEARED REPERCUSSIONS.

YOU KNOW?

YOU KIND OF GOT AN ATTITUDE IF YOU DO TALK ABOUT IT LIKE, OH, WHO CARES?

YOU ARE FINE.

AND IT'S MUCH BETTER NOW AND I'M SO GLAD THAT WOMEN ARE COMING FORWARD AND I'M SO GLAD THAT YOUNG WOMEN ARE MORE EMPOWERED TODAY THAN I WAS AT MY AGE.

>> GENEVIEVE, D.PHIL.

THE REPERCUSSIONS ARE GONE?

DO YOU FEEL LIKE SOMEONE WHO -- I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD FEEL ANY EASIER THESE DAYS, THOUGH CLEARLY THE WOMEN WHO DO HAVE THE GUTS TO COME FORWARD OR MORE BELIEVED THAN THEY USED TO BE.

HOW ABOUT YOU?

>> I THINK THAT PEOPLE, MOST WOMEN, I THINK WOULD FEEL MORE CONFIDENT TODAY COMING FORWARD BECAUSE I THINK THEY BELIEVE THEY HAVE A WIDER CIRCLE OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD LISTEN TO THEM.

I CERTAINLY KNOW THAT TO BE TRUE.

BONNIE, HE PRIMARILY WORKED IN THE MEDIA, NBC NEWS IS ALL IN MY EARLY CAREER, BUT MOST OF IT HAS BEEN IN THE CONSERVATIVE POLICY ARENA.

AND I AM GLAD TO SAY I HAVE NOT HAD THAT EXPERIENCE THAT I KNOW MANY OTHER WOMEN WHO HAVE!

I THINK I WOULD FEEL COMPLETELY CONFIDENT COMING FORWARD TODAY AND I THINK A LOT OF, ESPECIALLY YOUNGER WOMEN, WOULD FEEL THAT WAY BECAUSE OF THEIR PEERS AND THE FACT THAT IT'S JUST -- YOU DON'T GET AWAY WITH THINGS USED TO GET AWAY WITH AND SOME OF IT IS BECAUSE LAWS OF CHANGE, PUBLIC PRESSURE IN SOCIETY HAS CHANGED, SOME OF IT IS BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED.

YOU CANNOT GET AWAY WITH WHAT YOU USE TO GET AWAY WITH.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT DYNAMICS.

>> NO SECRETS ANYMORE.

THE WOMAN WHO ACCUSED GOVERNOR -- >> EVERYONE SKEPTIST EVERYWHERE THEY GO.

>> AND THE WOMAN WHO ACCUSED OF CUOMO HAD AN INCREDIBLE PICTURE OF HIM TALKING TO HER AT THE WEDDING WHERE HE'S KIND OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, SMILING AND GRABBING AT HER, AND SHE'S LOOKING AWAY LIKE, DON'T YOU TOUCH ME!

SO SO MUCH TECHNOLOGY ALL OVER THE PLACE.

IT'S A MAZING.

WE ARE OUT OF TIME FOR THIS SEGMENT.

THANK YOU CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON FOR JOINING US!

WE KNOW YOU HAVE AN APPOINTMENT AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

HAVE A GREAT TIME AND OUR NEXT TOPIC IS IMMIGRATION.

>>> A NEW POLL FROM POPULACE, THE AMERICAN ASPIRATIONS INDEX, REPORTS IMMIGRATION IS THE COUNTRY'S MOST POLARIZING ISSUE.

ANOTHER HARVARD UNIVERSITY AT HARRIS INSIGHT SURVEY FINDS 55 PERCENT OF AMERICANS DISAPPROVE OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DECISION TO REDUCE DEPORTATION OF THOSE HERE ILLEGALLY WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES, SUCH AS DUIS.

THESE ARE CRIMES THAT ARE NOT RELATED TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

AND 47 PERCENT DISAPPROVE OF ENDING CONSTRUCTION OF TRUMP'S BORDER WALL.

IN HIS FIRST APPEARANCE SINCE LEAVING OFFICE, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK AIM AT BIDEN FOR REVERSING TRUMP IMMIGRATION POLICIES.

>> TAKING THE HIGH-END APPOINTMENT RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC, A POTENTIAL OPEN INVITATION TO PEOPLE TO COME INTO THIS COUNTRY AND THE PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP, IF YOU GET HERE, I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS ARE SAYING, WHAT ABOUT PRIORITIZING THE NEEDS OF THOSE WHO ARE HERE?

YOU CONSIDER, I BELIEVE ONE OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS WAS AROUND COUNTING AND DOCUMENTED INDIVIDUALS IN THE CENSUS.

THE CENSUS WILL DETERMINE A LOT INCLUDING FUNDING FOR LOCALITIES.

>> AND OF COURSE, PATRICE ONWUKA IS ONE OF OUR REGULAR PANELISTS ON "TO THE CONTRARY."

GENEVIEVE, AS WE HAVE MENTIONED, A RECENT POLL SHOWS 55 PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC DOES NOT WANT TO SEE ALL THAT TRUMP DID TO PREVENT IMMIGRATION ROLLED BACK.

PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS HE WANTS TO UNITE THIS COUNTRY, AND HE'S GOING PRETTY FAR LEFT ON IMMIGRATION.

HOW THE HECK DOES HE EXPECT TO UNITE A COUNTRY WHEN THE MOST DIVISIVE ISSUE IS ROLLING HARD TO THE LEFT ON, HE'S ALREADY REVERSED TRUMP'S BAN ON DACA, THE DREAMERS, ETC., THEY ARE OTHER THINGS HE'S DONE?

WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING ON HERE?

>> I THINK YOU MADE A LOT OF PROMISES TO THE LEFT BASE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND NOW TRYING TO DELIVER ON THEM.

YOU DON'T GET UNITY BY COMING IN AND SAYING WE WILL NOT HAVE A CONVERSATION.

WE WILL JUST GO WITH WHAT WE WANT TO DO, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

THAT IS A PROBLEM.

LOOK, I THINK MOST AMERICANS -- THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON AS WE KNOW ON IMMIGRANTS.

WE OPEN OUR GAZE TO MORE IMMIGRANTS ACROSS THE WORLD THAN ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH.

SO I THINK EVERYBODY ON THE SHOW AND MOST AMERICANS ARE PRO-IMMIGRATION.

THE QUESTION IS, IN WHAT FASHION?

I THINK MANY AMERICANS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT, YES, THE ECONOMY, ESPECIALLY UNDER COVID.

CONCERNED ABOUT NATIONAL SECURITY -- >> THEY WANT THE JOBS.

AND MEAN, WE HAVE DONE STORIES BEFORE ABOUT HOW WHEN A LOT OF IMMIGRANTS, PARTICULARLY ILLEGAL FUNNEL THEMSELVES INTO A TRADE LIKE CONSTRUCTION, WAGES GO WAY DOWN.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT ABOUT THE AMERICANS WHO ARE HERE?

>> WE OUGHT TO DO THESE ISSUES WHEN AT A TIME.

IMMIGRATION IS A HUGE ISSUE.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE IN THE COUNTRY WHO ARE HERE UNDOCUMENTED.

WHAT WE DO ABOUT THOSE FOLKS?

WE HAVE A DEBATE OVER AMNESTY AND HOW TO MAKE PEOPLE LEGAL AND SO FORTH, BUT THOSE ARE INDIVIDUAL QUESTIONS, TRYING TO PUT EVERYTHING IN ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION MEANS THAT NONE OF IT GETS THE ATTENTION THAT IT OUGHT.THEY ARE SO MANY THINGS WILL AGREE ON, BUT WE CANNOT GET TO THIS BECAUSE WE PUT ALL THE BAD STUFF THAT WE DISAGREE ON IN THERE TOO WERE THE DEBATABLE THINGS.

WE OUGHT TO TAKE ON ONE OF THE TIME AND I THINK WE WOULD GET MORE DONE IF WE DID IT THAT WAY.

>> LINDA, WE MAY ADD THAT YOU ARE NOW A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE NATIONAL IMMIGRATION FORUM, GO AHEAD WITH YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, 75 PERCENT ALMOST OF AMERICANS WANT, IN FACT, TO SEE SOMETHING DONE ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

I WILL DISAGREE WITH GENEVIEVE.

I AM VERY, VERY MUCH CONSERVATIVE AND STILL CONSIDER MYSELF A CONSERVATIVE.

BUT IT IS -- IT'S JUST NOT TRUE THAT AMERICANS LOSE THEIR JOBS WHEN IMMIGRANTS COME INTO THE WORKFORCE.

IN FACT, IMMIGRANTS INCREASE THE NUMBER OF JOBS IN EVERY COMMUNITY AND EVERY STUDY THAT STONE SHOWS THAT.

>> LET ME CORRECTLY FOR A MOMENT.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT REDUCING THE NUMBER OF JOBS.

WE ARE SAYING THAT THEY DRIVE DOWN THE PAY IN INDUSTRIES WHERE THEY -- [CROSS TALK] >> WE DID A STORY -- >> BONNE -- [CROSS TALK] >> CONSTRUCTION WAGES IN TEXAS WENT FROM $20 AN HOUR TO $10 AN HOUR DUE TO IMMIGRATION.>> BONNIE, A LOT OF THE STATISTICS YOU ARE CITING, RIGHT OF THE FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM, WHICH IS THE LARGEST AND OLDEST ANTI-IMMIGRANT ORGANIZATION IN AMERICA.

>> ACTUALLY, THEY COME FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES.

>> WELL, THEY VERY WELL MAY HAVE GOTTEN IT FROM FAIR.

FERENTZ OUT THERE EVERY TIME YOU -- THEY, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN ANTI-IMMIGRANT ORGANIZATION IT'S BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL.

BUT THE FACT IS IF WE DO NOT BRING IN MORE PEOPLE TO THE UNITED STATES, WE ARE GOING TO FACE A REAL CRISIS IN OUR BENEFITS PROGRAMS LIKE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE.

AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BASICALLY SHUT DOWN LEGAL IMMIGRATION IN A VARIETY OF PROGRAMS.

THEY SHOT BACK A LOT -- THE LOTTERY PROGRAM, SOME OF THE H1-B PROGRAMS, AND SO NOW WE HAVE -- >> LINDA, HE ALSO HAD 74 MILLION PEOPLE VOTE TO REELECT HIM, WHEREAS BIDEN HAD 80 -- >> 78 MILLION VOTED [CROSS TALK] >> THIS IS THE MOST DIVISIVE ISSUE IN THE COUNTRY -- >> IT'S ACTUALLY NOT.

MOST AMERICANS -- [CROSS TALK] >> CAN I FINISH, PLEASE?

IT WAS RATED BY A HARVARD POLL TO BE THE MOST DIVISIVE ISSUE IN THE COUNTRY.

JOE BIDEN -- IF JOE BIDEN WANTS TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER, IS HE JUST GOING TO ROLL OVER THE 74 MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> BONNIE, REPUTABLE POLLS SHOW THAT 74 PERCENT OF AMERICANS WANT TO SEE IMMIGRATION REFORM AND WANT TO SEE SOME PATH TO LEGALIZATION FOR PEOPLE, MANY OF WHOM HAVE BEEN HERE FOR LITERALLY DECADES, MORE ABOUT TWO THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY, HALF OF WHOM OVERSTATE VISAS, THEY DID NOT CROSS THE BORDER, AS WE SOMETIMES THINK OF, AND THOSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HERE FOR DECADES.

THEY HAVE BEEN HERE FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES.

AND SO, THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE CHANGE THIS?

GENEVIEVE IS RIGHT.

YOU ROLL INTO A BIG BILL AND IT'S PROBABLY NOT GOING TO PASS.

WHAT YOU WILL SEE HAPPENED IS THAT BILL WILL BE TAKEN APART, THERE WILL BE PROVISIONS PUT FORWARD LIKE THE DACA PORTION, THERE WILL BE OTHER PORTIONS INCLUDING SOME OF THE LEGAL IMMIGRATION VISAS THAT I THINK WILL GO BEFORE, BUT AT SOME POINT WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE 11 MILLION PEOPLE AND DEPORT THEM.

IT WOULD BE LIKE AN ATOMIC BOMB HITTING ONE OF OUR MAJOR CITIES.

>> WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME AND I WANT TO GET DEBORAH SOME TIME TO SHARE HER THOUGHTS.

[CROSS TALK] >> ONE OTHER THOUGHT, BECAUSE I AGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT LINDA SAID AND A LOT OF WHAT GENEVIEVE SAID.

I'M GOING TO THROW THIS IN THERE.

WE HAVE SEEN THE EROSION OF UNIONS AND THE STRENGTH OF UNIONS AND UNIONS PROTECT WORKERS' RIGHTS LIKE CONSTRUCTION WORKERS AND WAGES.

UNIONS ARE NOT VERY STRONG ANYMORE.

BUT THAT IS ONE WAY, AND SOMETHING WE SHOULD LOOK AT, THAT PEOPLE WHO COME INTO THIS COUNTRY WHETHER THEY ARE LEGAL OR WILLING TO WORK FOR LESS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD UNIONS THERE, YOU MAY NOT BE SEEING THAT AS MUCH BECAUSE HE WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO EMPLOY THOSE PEOPLE, RIGHT THOSE PAYCHECKS.

I ALSO -- >> THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TIME FOR.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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